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THOUGHT'S from ANOTHER
Part I - Part II - Part III
Updated from:
http://www.usagold.com/ANOTHER_PAGE.html
6/4/98 ANOTHER (THOUGHTS!)
Mr. Kosares,
I wish to thank you for your effort in providing this forum. In this
format, we explore this new gold market from another view. Perhaps, many
will find they have considered "these changes" before they occur. Mr. Johan
Campher had asked for improved "abbreviations and acronyms". Starting today,
I hope to speak more clearly.
Thank You
Reply:
From George Cole:
ANOTHER: On Kitco some time ago you said that the BIS was seeking to
nudge the gold price back into a $320-360 trading range. If this is so,
why has the price fallen back to $300 after briefly touching $315?
Mr. Cole,
This question, it is important as many did not grasp the impact of
the last Belgium gold sale. In the past many of my "Thoughts" were offered
for open discussion and debate. When I posted that "a large purchase was
in progress" and "we should see this in several days", the intent was to
focus persons on the public announcement, soon to be released. I also offered
that we would see $320 - $360. I add to this, for your question.
Many, not all, Central Banks offered gold loans in support of the expanding
paper gold market. This major new trading market could not exist without
some "addition" of existing gold, placed on the market from time to time.
This addition of forward sales to the "existing physical gold market" expanded
the "gold trading arena" .
Because the Central Bank loans and sales offered "credibility" to any
outstanding "short gold paper", a large derivatives market was built around
this "gold trading arena". The CBs, along with the Bank For International
Settlements (BIS), wanted gold to fall into the low to mid $300 range as
this made the dollar (US$) strong in gold. It also made much of the "old"
gold paper "good for delivery" as the Bullion Banks could supply the physical
by purchasing on the "outside market" at lower prices! Had many of the
early paper buyers (year or so ago) called for delivery, there be no supply
as the physical market was spoken for. A falling dollar gold price made
good on past paper deals as existing private supply was made free. In this
light, I think few do truly understand how much trading in done in the
world "gold trading arena" by LBMA! To understand this, is to know, "the
CBs could never supply it! To think that gold is not wanted or not traded
or "is a dead asset", it does become the foolish thought, yes?
I think, over time, the gold derivatives market did "break" the control
of the BIS. Gold is held by many world class entities, as a capital asset.
These "Giants" did understand the purpose for $350 gold. In this range,
the gold mining industry and many capital reserve gold assets would survive.
Gold below $300 was not wanted, as even the BIS would be forced to move
with the price much below $280. The last small gold war ended in the early
1980s, as the choice was to use the US$ or go to a gold based economy.
No other reserve currency existed, and gold lost the war as all continued
to buy dollar reserves.
Today, a new currency is formed. It offers a way to break the dollar
valuation of gold without the total destruction of worldwide currency markets
and economies. In time, oil producers can offer their low cost reserves
at true valuations, that support industry and commerce in exchange for
a revaluing of real money, gold, in a real currency, Euros!
The Belgium government did state " The National Bank does not intend
to sell any further gold and this sale completes its programme of gold
sales which started in 1989". Mr. Cole, in this statement you may read,
that the "paper gold" of "the modern gold trading arena" will no longer
be supported with "Euro Group Supply"! They did also state "After the start
of European Economic and Monetary Union (EMU) in January 1999 Belgium will
hold close to 300 tonnes of gold which is expected to be equivalent to
around one third of its external reserves"! Sir, you may also read this
as, once the Euro is formed, all "new" sales of "external reserve gold"
will be done in: EUROs! They will have little use to sell gold for US$
reserves as they will have "much of that currency" already.
As events progress, all/most "external gold reserves" of the "Euro Group
Countries" will move towards the ECB and be settled in Euros. As gold will
always be traded and denominated in the world currency that settles oil
sales. Even Swiss gold will be sold to European Central Bank (ECB) for
Euros for defense against the falling dollar. Yes, most dollar derivatives
will fail as "worldwide gold trading in US$" stops from "contract default"!
Will the dollar be weak in gold? Indeed, it may not exist as a market for
gold!
The Belgium CB does also state "gold will continue to play a role in
the international financial system"! Some say these CBs are fools because
they lower the value of their own reserve asset. This is done as a new
world reserve oil currency is produced. Perhaps the perception of value
is an ever changing, fools game? And to this I ask, what kind of fools
are we?
Yes, the Central Banks now look for $360. But in time, "that too will
pass as swift clouds on a moon less night"
Thank You
ANOTHER
6/2/98 Friend of ANOTHER
Michael: The article was from a conference that was just completed.
You may contact the institute or visit their web page: http://www.aei.org/
This item came from the web site:
THE NEW ATLANTIC INITIATIVE
America and Europe: Will European Monetary Union Fracture the Alliance?
By the Right Honorable Michael Portillo
Wednesday, May 27, 1998
5:30 p.m.
Wohlstetter Conference Center
Twelfth Floor, AEI
European elites are embracing federalism and European integration as
the primary means to ensure post-cold war security on the Continent. Michael
Portillo argues that this is the wrong route. European integration is being
designed in such a way that it sharply reduces democratic control, stirs
up nationalism, and endangers the transatlantic link. Only a renewed and
revitalized atlanticism will, in Mr. Portillo's view, guarantee European
security. Mr. Portillo was secretary of state for defense in Britain from
1995 to 1997.
Introduction: Jeane Kirkpatrick, AEI
Speaker: Michael Portillo
Comment: Richard Perle, AEI
Also:
I have a person in Washington that could find out more about this.
However, I think this excerpt (I sent you) is open knowledge. It just has
a nice connection to European thinking in regards to the new currency.
The Middle Eastern bullion holdings are well hidden from official records.
They control the gold market through the London/European gold paper markets.
It was the BIS that handed them the market when it created the Central
Bank lending deals. They were the prime buyers right off the bat! I didn't
understand until about a year ago, how they were gaining control without
cash. The answer is they don't buy the paper gold with cash! The Bullion
Banks take oil reserves as collateral for it. The money that ends up in
the account for a typical mining company forward deal is really a loan
against oil in the ground. That's why the CBs lend the gold so cheap, it's
not for the mines, it's for the producers! Now you know how we buy cheap
oil prices. The world thinks the CBs are doing this for a 1% return. Truth
is, the mining industry is going to pay full interest in the end. It's
one hell of a complicated affair, with the politics and all. Needless to
say, as the events open up and expose some of this, the public is going
to be very interested. As for the SNB selling half of their gold. If they
do, it will be for Euros, you can bet on it!
Thanks
Friend of ANOTHER (FOA)
5/28/98 USAGOLD:
Dear Friend of ANOTHER:
I didn't know the oil states were holding gold paper. I thought they
were in physical metal. Reports show Saudi Arabian physical demand skyrocketing.
Also do you have further reference on the Portillo comments? By the way
World Gold Council recently published a graph on the level of estimated
forwards and deferreds (in London) at over 2000 tons? Is ANOTHER aware
of this figure? The name of the report for your interest is "Utilisation
of Borrowed Gold by the Mining Industry" by Ian Cox and Ian Emsley. Cox
is out of Samuel Montagu; and Emsley, Anglo-Gold. Personally, I think the
bullion bank scheme is running out of gas simply because they are having
a difficult time talking central banks into mobilizing. When the euro comes
on line, we will know what is going to happen with reserves. Some say that
mobilizations are already banned, or at least hampered through Maastricht.
I would also like to find out more about the Swiss operations. Do you have
access to the bill passed by the Swiss legislature yesterday?
Thanks
Michael Kosares
5/27/98 FRIEND of ANOTHER
Michael,
This article (see below) puts a different light on the Euro. I think
a major effort was underway for many years to unseat the dollar. It was
only after the gulf war politics that the EURO group saw a way to use gold
to draw in the oil producer currency backing. It was clear that the dollar
was going to someday fall from reserve currency status because of it's
compounding debt load. With nothing to replace it, gold would become the
world oil currency, as Another says.
Initially, they built the Euro with little talk of gold, all the while
building a paper gold market that is dollar settlement based. By increasing
the Gold Trading Market with paper gold, it not only drove the gold price
down, but gave these contracts credibility as they could be settled in
a strong dollar via gold. The hook came when they suddenly wanted gold
as part of the reserves for the Euro! Now the BIS just stops supporting
the London market with Central Bank gold loans and sales. By the time for
the Euro to debut , gold starts to rise through the $360 area, there by
breaking the entire dollar based paper gold market! Every oil state, and
anyone else that is holding paper gold, will try to first exchange it for
physical. After that guess who will be waiting with a brand new hard world
reserve currency, ready made for converting dollar gold loans into Euro
gold loans!
The dollar will not necessarily be destroyed by inflation at first,
but you can be sure it will collapse in terms of gold. In this process,
if everyone try's to spend their overseas dollars (presently Eurodollars),
the US will no doubt invoke foreign exchange controls and most likely create
a new currency. I think, that's where ANOTHER gets the $30,000+ business
for existing (replaced) dollars and I don't doubt it one bit. This is why
everybody keeps getting lost in the falling gold price. They keep working
it like it's the old physical market years ago. It's not the same. Anyone
that try's to leverage it in any way will just keep getting pounded as
London prints gold for all their worth until the Euro takes effect. I think,
sometime in 1999 or a little later, physical gold will stop all trading
on US$ markets, it has to, no other way! The Euro gold market will exist,
but selling it in Euros will, no doubt be an interesting process. But,
a much better prospect than trying to convert mining shares or any other
paper gold contracts.
To the best of my knowledge, this is my interpretation of the current
market.
Best Regards
Friend Of ANOTHER
ATTACHMENT:
FORMER BRITISH DEFENSE SECRETARY WARNS AMERICA ABOUT A UNITED EUROPE
(As summarized by Friend of ANOTHER)
(May 27, 1998) In a speech yesterday at the American Enterprise Institute,
a conservative think-tank, former British Secretary of State for Defense,
Michael Portillo, warned that European monteary union and a unifed European
foreign policy will erode the Amerian alliance with Europe. He said that
a united Europe will benefit neither global security nor free trade saying
that its future foreign policy could lead to the emergence of a bloc in
opposition to the U.S. He said, "What I really want is for a debate to
emerge in the U.S. about what the European movement is really about. Americans
essentially are comitted to global free trade, while many in Europe are
not. And I think they need to be careful about whether a common foreign
policy in Europe might lead to a silencing of the British view, the emergence
of a consensus to do nothing, and the emergence of a distinct view that
there was a third way, a new and positively anti-American way."
5/26/98 ANOTHER (THOUGHTS!)
Mr. Kosares,
I know you have also seen where the Rothschild prepares computers for
a change , perhaps to Euro market gold! Much will be the commissions earned
in this area. Some investors say "gold loses face in low price" and "gold
is a dead asset". I say, a travel to London will offer much education,
as the "city" trades more gold than exists!
Sir,
I offer this for consideration by all.
Do you know the value of gold?
From the day of our birth we are taught to value all things using the
one factor alone, currency! Can one contemplate the value of all possessions
in other terms? Do you not have to think first as to "how many dollars
is that worth" then "how many dollars is this worth" to compare two items?
If it is deep within our mind, that we can know value only in terms of
paper, to this I ask, can one know value at all!
The Western mind does focus on "what I buy today for the lowest price".
Yet, in this modern world economy, the lowest price is always the function
of "the currency exchange rate"? The Yen, it is compared to the dollar
today, and used to purchase goods. One year later and the Japan offers
these goods for much less, as the Yen has fallen to the US$. The currency
value of this purchase, was it "true " today or a year ago? Understand,
all value judgments today are as subject to "exchange rate competition"!
It is in "this exchange rate valuations" that the private citizen does
denominate all net worth! A safe way to hold the wealth for your future,
yes? You should ask a Korean or the Indonesian ?
One should grasp that "today, your wealth, is not what your currency
say it is"! In this world, paper currency is for trade, only! It is for
the buying, selling, earning and paying, not for knowing the value of your
family holdings! Know this, "the printers of paper do never tell the owner
that the money has less value, that judgment is reserved for the person
you offer that currency to"! Again, I ask, how can we know a true value
for our assets, when they are known only in currency that finds it's worth,
as in the exchange rate for another currency?
Many will "think long and hard on this", but will find little reason
for this position. For it is in your history to know only "things valued
in paper terms". Some say, "I hold investments of great increase these
past years, and am much ahead of the inflation, if it should come". I say,
"your investments, worldwide, have moved little, as it has been the currencies
that denominate your assets, that fall a great deal". The price inflation
that comes, it is larger than your vision can see! Your past, holds little
of knowing value outside of currencies, this does block the good view!
We watch the approach of this change, and discuss it, together, yes?
It will truly be "a gold market as none before".
There is more: Today, the world reserve currency holds the exchange
rate of one dollar equals one three hundredth of an ounce of gold! It is
this rate, that makes the dollar, not as the Indonesian currency. Perhaps
a secure thought? However, even this 1/300 rate is also subject to "exchange
rate competition"! This new rate was purchased by the acceptance of the
"new paper gold" as equal value to "the physical gold"! This large, new
paper gold market was created to increase the supply of "traded gold".
The physical gold supply alone could not be increased to bring the dollar
into the mid to lower 300s exchange rate area, there by making it "strong
in gold". But, as in all new markets, for the "traded gold arena" to accept
a "paper gold item" in great amounts, it required new colatteral/assets
to give this paper item "integrity"! That "integrity" was found in oil!
Some say, "gold fall because noone was buying it". I say, "gold fall
because many were buying it"! They buy as the "trading market" was made
"much fat" with added paper! Understand this: The US$ price of gold could
only fall if a market existed for paper gold priced lower each time of
offer! If the price did not fall, this paper market "could not function"
as "it would not be profitable to the writer"! It was, for many years,
in the good interest of all, for the dollar to find a gold price close
to production cost. That time has now much passed!
One day soon, this "paper gold item" may lose it's "integrity from oil"
by way of "competition" from a new reserve currency! In that day, "paper
gold" will rush to become "physical gold" as "dollar gold contracts" rush
to become "Euro gold contracts". You see, the value of the gold lost from
the Euro CB sales will return in the form of a "Euro strong in gold". The
"gold reserves" held for the EURO will offer strength, but it will be the
total destruction of the dollar gold market that does make " this currency
go home"!
When the future comes, and one holds asset values in dollar terms, many
may discover, there wealth was not as this currency said it was! In that
day, you will know your assets, as expressed in the real money of our fathers!
This new dollar/gold exchange rate will end your search for the
"the true value of gold"
Thank you
Another
5/22/98 ANOTHER (THOUGHTS!) Replies to Questions Asked
Mr, Kosares,
I offer these replies to all. Send the next group as able. Thank You
From Richard Burke: Another, thank you for your "Thoughts". At this
point I would appreciate your opinion as to whether the following is what
you mean about the above relationships. Assume that one $US = one $EU to
start and that gold is $US300 and oil $US15. Then, 1 oz of gold will buy
20 bbls of oil. You say gold will rise very much in $US. Say gold rises
to $US900, but is still $EU300 (or will gold rise but rise less in $EU
because of the gold backing?). Then, oil will be $US45 and $EU15. Europe
as you say will be able to developits industrial base on cheap oil while
the US is stuck with high priced oil.
ANOTHER: Mr. Burke, You have written the general outcome! Also, note,
three $US would then equal one $EU. However, the difference in gold, as
expressed in each currency may be much, much greater! I would not say,
the US would be stuck with "high priced oil", as a new US dollar could
be formed much fashioned from the Euro. If US gold is "revalued" upward
to the new true level, what persons, worldwide may be stuck with would
be the "old US$" and all that it could not buy! Perhaps shareholders of
gold mines will push for recall, as most gold loans today are in the US$
reserve currency! I think, much will be the battle in this area as investors
think first to buy physical gold, not gold in ground contracted for delivery
and payment in future bad currency.
It is to say, "the foot will be in the other shoe", yes? Thank You for
this thinking.
From Johan Campher: It is only very recently that I started reading
the discussions on the Kitco web site. I then picked up something about
ANOTHER moving to the USAGOLD web site. This is how I discovered your site.
Unfortunately, as a relative uninformed, I find reading ANOTHER'S thoughts
very difficult,because of the many abbreviations and acronyms. For you,
and others in the USA/Europe it might be common knowledge. For some, not
so common. For instance, what is the BIS? Could you ask ANOTHER to spell
out the full name with the abbreviation in brackets before using it further
in the text? ... or is there a web site where all the abbreviations could
be found? How about a list of important abbreviations your own website?
ANOTHER: Mss. Campher, Bank For International Settlements! The Kitco
group has much on this. I do think many there, that I spoke with, have
better minds than myself. They do much to search out the truth! I will
have these proof- read in future for better understanding. Thank You
From Polloa: All of these movements and realignments depend upon an
electronic system or systems to support the transactions. Yet the Year
2000 problem seems to threaten the entire world's systems. ANOTHER, has
this been discussed or acted upon that you know of? And if so, what actions
have been taken?
ANOTHER: Polloa, I think, many will "cross this bridge at the last moment".
It is a well known, considered problem that, if not fixed, will take the
"Western World" back in time many years. Perhaps, luxury will be lost,
and many will live as "third world countries". Some may find this a "better
outcome" in life? However: Our world economic system does survive many
problems. Humankind must battle the war and distrust with great intensity.
Always, we find, it is the honest person of simple means that leads the
lost! These same citizens will find a security for the future that comes
from the past. History has shown the physical gold does hold true against
all odds. If gold can stand against war, it will carry your wealth during
the time of Y2K.
Thank You
From Tom Young: Also, I found many of your prior posts to be, well,
lets just say in need of interpretation. Your statements on $30,000. gold
are improbable but not impossible. I agree with you on holding physical.
As I have said so often I will judge your words next January. Not that
this "judgment" affects you in any way. It is just my way of saying I don't
disbelieve your thoughts or words and will let time tell if you speak true
or not.
ANOTHER: Mr. Tom, Above, is only part of your questions/statements.
I add this: All of life is "improbable but not impossible" and "in need
of interpretation."! I offer these "Thoughts" to "open minds", such as
yours, for "consideration and discussion". It is the "American Way", yes?
This be not a good world, where secrets close doors and hide truths. I
do feel ALL persons are very intelligent, and can understand the road maps
of life. For many, "the answers are not found at the end of our travels,
but along the trail we walk together"! We watch this new gold market, together,
yes? Thank You and all of Kitco
From Lyle Montgomery: ANOTHER, If there is substantial backing of
the Euro by physical gold the $US must certainly suffer. Enough physical
is available if interests are pooled to make the Euro the preeminent money.
Might this not precipitate a severe reaction from the US - possibly even
covert action to in some way minimize potential backing by gold?
ANOTHER: Sir, Yes. I do look for much destruction of the gold market
as this progresses. I think, much of this "fight of money" will happen
between 1999 and 2000, as the "gold trading center" in the middle east
will be completed by then. If the Euro does fail, gold will become the
"world oil currency". We do know this full well, "the Central Banks will
horde all gold and buy any offered if this new European currency does not
work" and "debt currencies fail". If this does comes, no paper asset of
world economic system will survive, nothing! Not a good thought, no?Thank
You
From sharfin: You will have to do better than this. I have read all
of another's writings and what I read now is a sham.
ANOTHER: Sir, Thank you for reading my thoughts, as I do read yours!
As in all life, "events make truths", not the words of Another. "time will
prove all things" Thank You
From PH in LA: As the Euro is phased in, how will individual member
currencies fare in relation to the dollar? Will a fall in the dollar result
in holders of European currencies, real assets (such as European real estate),
and/or bonds (in euros) reaping a windfall vis a vis the dollar? Or will
gold be the only way for Americans to safeguard assets in the coming turmoil?
ANOTHER: Sir, This change in "World reserve currency" will be "the unfolding
event of our time"! As in conflict, the deployment of forces/assets is
never a final decision! But, for persons of simple thought, such as I,
we do well to "follow in the footsteps of giants"! Today, this trail does
show deep prints from the weight of GOLD! For myself and my country, I
stand with the proof from the past, I stand with gold! I thank you for
your effort, "for all your days, walk tall with wealth"!
5/21/98 ANOTHER (THOUGHTS!)
Mr. Kosares,
I offer simple thoughts for hard questions.
"And by the way, just what do you as a central banker take for collateral
on a gold loan?" (USAGOLD question)
Sir,
I think, the currency of a country does no longer hold "backing". This
term, it is used often, but is not correct. Today, all modern money does
have "reserves", and such is used only for "the dirty float" in currency
warfare. As in war, the larger and better equipped army in "reserve" does
rule over the lesser force. Perhaps we should think in this way: in "cold
war" of modern exchange rates, "digital currencies from reserves are used",
however, when "hot war" of major default does begin, "nuclear weapons of
GOLD" are deployed!
As in real war defense, of today, some countries hold a much lesser
army, and depend on "the alliance" with other stronger nations to defend
them. Such it is with the currencies! Many states hold but a few "digital
currencies" as reserves for currency wars and see no need for "gold nuclear
weapons". They sell off these weapons and do join "the currency alliance"
of stronger nations. We see this in Europe, yes?
Time does record, that many young persons do mature without a history
of "currency defeat" in money wars. These same do attain positions of authority
with respect, to handling the currency "reserves" of a nation. It is in
their "education" that the private citizens do lose much wealth. We proceed
to such a time today, as gold loans hold only paper collateral! The motives
of all Central Banks be not the same, with respect to "gold loans". A small
number do travel the road of "monetary union" and sell gold as a commodity
for funds to reduce debt. These officials thatsell for this purpose alone
will be viewed as "much the fool" by voters, as gold does become a "great
value" in the future. Some CBs also "lend" gold for a small return, as
they see little difference in this metal to holding the Yen reserves and
also receiving , perhaps 2%! These Central Banks place the gold with a
private Bullion Bank. The gold is sold and the proceeds wait in this BB
and draw market interest. The CB does have a "letter" claim to this "proceeds"
and views it as "the same" as other "lent out currency reserves". The BB
uses this "proceeds" as collateral to create contract with gold mine for
future purchase of "new mined gold". The CB does also "attach" this "future
gold" and views it as "lent out bullion reserves". This "attach" , it could
claim the entire assets of mine in default, yes? Perhaps, we can see that
"default" can also occur from other than "low gold price"? In currency
wars of future, workers walk from doing job, as in Indonesia? A mine of
few workers has little value, but often we see banks do claim "things of
little value".
The key for this "new gold market" is found not in the process of gold
loans and sales, but in the "who is the new owner of this metal"? Noone
did see clearly, "the other side of this". Always the view was, "see how
the fools sell the gold and drive price low", not "who is buying all of
this new supply at such cheap prices and giving up interest on currency
also"? One should consider, "how much currency has flowed thru gold" over
these past years! It is a great deal of wealth! Can not one see the clear
view, "has not gold made the dollar strong as world reserve currency"?
This happens in a time that all say the dollar would fail! Perhaps, "this
new gold supply", it was for the purchase of "time".
If oil was about to go off the "dollar reserve standard" and allow pricing
in all currencies, and "the physical gold currency" was to be the most
economical way to purchase, then I would say, "time was a valued purchase",
yes? It is in this "purchased time", the world finds the creation of a
"new reserve currency". The dollar, is today, strong in nature of a low
gold price. Tomorrow, it will be the Euro that will find strength in a
low gold price! Perhaps, these dollar "gold loans" will be called in to
become "Euro gold loans"? "Gold priced in the thousands of USDs does not
change this currency, it changes your perception of wealth"
Thank You
Another
5/11/98 USAGOLD
Dear ANOTHER:
I read your last correspondence with a great deal of interest. One
question that immediately comes to mind is what exactly do you mean by
old world order reasserting itself? The old European aristocracy? Is the
political/economic power in Europe as it was prior to World War I? Also,
if Europe undermines U.S. does it not also undermine its own security?
Is not the Russian bear far from dead but simply in hibernation? Is Europe
able industrially to gear up its military defense industry quickly enough
to replace U.S. protection? I would think that the same applies to the
Gulf and Saudi Arabia. Iraq and Iran are not friendly countries and Europe
cannot protect the region from unstable societies. One would think that
the U.S. would protect corporate interests in that part of the world no
matter what happens in Europe, but if America goes bankrupt it will have
other concerns.
On the subject of gold: Do you have any information as to the backing
on the euro percentage-wise? Does it actually make any difference if its
10%, 20%, 30%? Or is the psychology the important factor? Any gold backing
would make the euro more appealing than the dollar.
This morning a Portuguese central bank governor implied that gold was
drawing such a nice interest rate that Portugal would probably would not
sell gold. Implied in that statement is a willingness to lend. What would
happen if borrowing entities suddenly found themselves unable to pay back
their gold loans. Wouldn't this undermine that nation's balance sheet not
to mention their sovereignty? Do you know of any instance where central
bank gold loans have gone bad? And by the way, just what do you as a central
banker take for collateral on a gold loan? Is not gold the ultimate, liquid
collateral? Do you take back a piece of paper representing the right to
future gold delivery? What good is that. To me it is pure folly. I've never
understood this idea of a gold loan from a practical point of view? By
its nature, it must by necessity be an unsecured loan.
Along these lines I have one more related question, then I must go.
How long do you think those playing this game of paper selling can continue?
We have heard for many months that there will come a time when physical
demand will force the shorts to bid up the price to cover. It has not happened.
Why not? Can LBMA play this paper game forever? Are you and I underestimating
their ability to play the magician in this regard and keep us all mystified?
Though we are in a new market because of the euro, there is still much
of the old because of the Bank of England and LBMA -- do you agree?
Thank you
Michael Kosares
5/5/98 USAGOLD
Dear ANOTHER, my great respect for you has just deepened further. Have
a pleasant ten days and I will consider your words. Yes, we will talk over
time. Thank you Mike Kosares
------------------------------------------------------------------------
5/5/98 ANOTHER (THOUGHTS!) USAGOLD QUESTIONS IN ITALICS
Mr. Kosares,
A few thoughts for you, as the questions are asked?
** It seems that both you and your friend believe that the world is
splitting up into currency/trading blocks -- much as the world did for
both World Wars. There has been much discussion around the world about
the imposition of a NEW WORLD ORDER and international one world government.
Simultaneously, we see another, opposing force at work -- regionalism,
nationalism, even tribalism. What do you make of this? Is the Euro a child
of the forces of the New World Order, or the forces of regionalism/nationalism/tribalism?
**
Sir,
I would say, "Old World Order" to return. To understand/explain better:
" A very easy way to view this "order", would be to simply say that the
American Experience is reaching the end! As we know, world war two left
Europe and the world economy destroyed. Many thinkers of that period thought
that the world was about to enter a decades long depression as it worked
to rebuild real assets lost in the conflict. It was this war that so impacted
the idea of looking positively toward the future. The past ideals of building
solid, enduring, long term wealth were lost in the conception of a whole
generation possibly doing without! In these fertile grounds people escaped
reality with the New Idea of long term debt, being held as a money asset.
Yes, here was born the American Experience that comes to maturity today.
New world order, regionalism and tribalism are but modern phases that
denote "group retreat to avoid paying up". The worldwide currency system
is truly a reflection of an economy built from war, using the American
Experience, the US$ and the debt that it represents. But, for the American
dollar to continue as the representative of the global financial system,
in the form of being the reserve currency, maturing generations of all
countries must accept it, and the tax on real production it clearly imposes!
In the very same mind set, that people buy the best value for the lowest
price (Japan cars in the late 70s), and leave an established producer to
die, so will they escape the American currency and accept any competitor
that offers a better deal. Because we are speaking of currencies here,
the transition will be brutal!
As you ponder these thoughts, consider that; all economies today are
truly equal in production as the exchange rates are the manufactures of
profit!"
** Is Europe (led behind the scenes by the BIS) an opponent to the United
States?**
Sir, Yes, but not in the ways of war, as it is in the feelings of "pride"
and "we go our own way". The downfall of the Russia, did allow for the
Euro and all that it will build. They now see the debt of the US$, as a
reserve money can be escaped! As even the US citizen will leave it's own
workers to die as products are purchased "overseas", how much less will
the world also flee the dollar! Opponents? No, I would say they are learners
of the "American Way" as they embrace the "American Idea" of a "free world
market economy".
*** If so which countries are in which camp? Your associate seems to
feel that Asia is split between the United States which has Japan as an
ally, and Europe which has China as an ally ( a notion I found particularly
intriguing). Where is Britain in this? Japan? And most importantly, the
Gulf States, particularly Saudi Arabia? **
Sir, I feel he is correct in this thought. Europe does grasp for a relationship
with Asia as the US did have with the Japan. It would build a mighty economy
on a foundation of oil and gold as backing for new money. As China and
Arabia was once a part of the Europe economy, in a small way. They may
now return with no fear of Russia. Britain? A lost nation. Japan? This
one is "of the American Economy" and is to live and die by it! They will
seek your Alaska oil before loss of face with gold. A dead Yen be a dead
Japan.
**Along these lines, I too believe that currency movements will flow
through Europe because the Euro currency will be gold backed. Where does
that leave Japan with over $200 billion in dollar reserves, let alone its
massive U.S. Treasuries' holding? **
Perhaps, they be like Korea? Rich in paper until the world says, "this
paper, it is not good"!
***Your associate says that BIS helped China increase its gold holdings.
Please tell me what the source of that information is, or is it simply
a speculation on his part. ***
The BIS is the gold broker for all interbank sales/purchases. Bullion
Banks are for sales to other entities. I think, at first, China was leverage
against the oil producers. Then Arabia was allowed into BIS for Euro.
**One other item you might clarify for me is "Who is really behind BIS?**
Perhaps, "who control them"?
**The Swiss? Yes.
**The eurocentral banks? Yes.
**Who does BIS really represent? "old world, gold economy, as viewed
thru modern eyes" or " way to move from US$ without war".
**Why was Saudi Arabia just included in BIS? answered.
**Has Saudi Arabia gone with Europe? Yes.
Sir, there is much more to this, but we talk over time, yes? I will
be away for perhaps ten days. We speak again.
Thank You
5/3/98 USAGOLD
Dear ANOTHER & Friend of ANOTHER,
I would like to begin by thanking you for taking the time to send your
thoughts. They are very interesting to say the least. As you know I too
believe that the introduction of the Euro is a seminal event -- one that
will change the world financial landscape. I will try to ask questions
in a logical framework for my own benefit as well as perhaps to help you
to construct and add to your own thinking on these matters.
I would like to start with this because it troubles me at the moment:
I have been working on this euro problem for some time -- trying to make
Americans more aware of what the events you so eloquently describe will
mean to their financial well-being. As I am sure you are fully aware, the
American media has done a very poor job on these matters of earthshaking
importance. I recently read a New York Times opinion piece on the subject
and was surprised to see that the word "gold" did not even appear in the
text. I was interviewed for a national network radio program recently and
mentioned in our conversation that I thought the introduction of the euro
would be viewed by historians in the future as the most important event
of the last quarter of the 20th century (not the sexual antics of our troubled
president). The press is only now beginning to understand the import of
these events but still they treat it with surface analysis. With that as
background, let me ask my first question and it is an important one:
It seems that both you and your friend believe that the world is splitting
up into currency/trading blocks -- much as the world did for both World
Wars. There has been much discussion around the world about the imposition
of a NEW WORLD ORDER and international one world government. Simultaneously,
we see another, opposing force at work -- regionalism, nationalism, even
tribalism. What do you make of this? Is the euro a child of the forces
of the New World Order, or the forces of regionalism/nationalism/tribalism?
Is Europe (led behind the scenes by the BIS) an opponent to the United
States? If so which countries are in which camp? Your associate seems to
feel that Asia is split between the United States which has Japan as an
ally, and Europe which has China as an ally ( a notion I found particularly
intriguing). Where is Britain in this? Japan? And most importantly, the
Gulf States, particularly Saudi Arabia?
Along these lines, I too believe that currency movements will flow through
Europe because the euro currency will be gold backed. Where does that leave
Japan with over $200 billion in dollar reserves, let alone its massive
U.S. Treasuries' holding? Isn't it true that Japan imports nearly 100%
of its oil? If what you say is true about future oil payments they will
be forced to their own gold backed currency along the lines of Europe,
and in the process unload the dollar as unwanted, unneeded currency. All
of this, needless to say, is very bad for the dollar and perhaps you are
right: A new, gold-backed dollar might be the necessary result. Your associate
says that BIS helped China increase its gold holdings. Please tell me what
the source of that information is, or is it simply a speculation on his
part. One other item you might clarify for me is "Who is really behind
BIS? The Swiss? The euro central banks? Who does BIS really represent?
Why was Saudi Arabia just included in BIS? Has Saudi Arabia gone with Europe?
Please speak to these issues so that we might proceed.
I do not mean to sound naive but much of this is new to me and I would
like to know who the players are and where they stand vis a vis the United
States.
I remain your friend,
Michael Kosares
5/3/98 USAGOLD
Good evening, ANOTHER.
I just wanted to say that I received your correspondence today and
that I will respond hopefully tonight or tomorrow. Thank you for telling
me it takes time to formulate your words. It is good to know that I am
not only one who labors over the written word. I understand. My questions,
given the important subject matter, will take time as well.
Thank you for contacting me,
Michael Kosares.
5/3/98 FRIEND OF ANOTHER
The Belgium story was the usual rumor stuff. It still had weight from
the old CB deals and everyone still thinks more gold is coming to the market.
These days, the big brokers look for any sign of gold movements by Bullion
Banks. They don't really know what's going on, but any amount of CB gold
trades are interpreted as the next big sale going down! Oh, gold is still
moving, it's just moving from one CB to the next. The story from the BOE
told the tale for the benefit of the public, the Euro is going to bring
London some big loses! Merrill Lynch, et al, don'tgrasp the gold valuations
by the BIS. Gold is valued by the number of outstanding claims against
it. Kind of like a house for sale with ten bidders. Each bidder thinks
the house is, in the bag because they have a valid bid ticket. Each one
thinks he can have the house at any time,even thought nine others want
it to, because all I have to do is bid alittle higher and take it! Insane,
but that's what is going on! Somehow, the BIS and the major private gold
holders know the total claims, as does Another. The Euro group is going
to force those claims into real bids instead of just claims!
They brought the Chinese onto their side by neutralizing the rest of
the Asian competition. China hates Japan and would like nothing better
than to watch them die as they stick with the US and the dollar. China
also picked up huge gold holdings these last few years with the help of
the BIS. They will easily fit into the Euro world and enjoy a massive trading
block with Europe!
As gold is allowed to drift upward to the $320/$360 area, the real gold
wars will begin where they left off in the early 80s. The paper gold market
is still controlled by London, and we will see tremendous paper spikes
up and down as this monster is killed! That's why Warren broughtsilver
for BH, it won't move anything like gold percentage wise, but it's the
best they could do in a public company. The poor traders don't think physical
can move much, so they trade for a few dollars up and down. Michael, We
are looking at a sea change of biblical proportions, that, if it can take
down London, it will most certainly eat any and all traders. CPMs included!
Not a good thought, yes?
Thanks
5/3/98 ANOTHER (THOUGHTS!)
Mr. Kosares, Your friend thinks much of this gold owned by the USA.
It could be used to back the dollar up to 25%, no? Many come to this thinking
and hold a secure thought, that as last resort, this gold will save the
day! I think, many persons never gained the understanding that the American
gold is kept by the "Treasury", not the maker of your money, "The Federal
Reserve". It is there for good reason, as the present world currency system
is not a function of American law! If the US were to place gold in the
hands of the US/CB as reserves for the dollar, the BIS could claim it!
It is, as a point of contention and of no real use. I think not a war would
come of this claim, if it should happen! As the world currencies are now,
a "new dollar" would be needed if gold were used as reserves! The present
dollar would then, truly be as "paper for the wall"!
The urgent drive to create a new "reserve currency" began in the early
80s, after the last small "gold war". The road to making this new Euro
did never include gold in large amounts, until the last few years! Even
one year ago, the news would say, 5% or less. Today, we speak of a much
greater amount! This is interesting, yes? The BIS did "hatch" this deal
in a very late fashion! The future of the Euro was found to be "weak",
as the Middle East oil imports onto the continent would continue in dollars!
This was so from the dollar being made strong in gold. Gold priced in dollars
at near production cost, offered a "no switch currency" position, for oil.
This position has been unstable for the last year, and the alternative
of a switch to gold was in progress! You have read my "Thoughts" before.
Now the BIS does offer to "change the rules of engagement", a real reserve
currency is offered!
Few do grasp what is happening and why! They think the holding of gold
reserves by the Euro is of a little point, as to what good are gold reserves?
One cannot use gold as Marks or Yen to intervene in currency market to
support the Euro. My friend, the BIS has played the, as you say, "big poker
hand"! The holding of large reserves by the ECB and the withholding of
sales from the market will not only bring the end of the London paper gold
market, it will, thru a high USD gold price, "make the dollar weak in gold"!
From this position, the dollar will lose the "oil backing" from the Middle
East! At first, all oil for Europe will be in Euro's, then all producers
want "strong currency"!
There is more: Many say, how to defend Euro without much currency reserves?
If gold go to many thousands US, what will be used to bid for Euro as defense?
I say, these persons will find a problem on their computer screens! You
see, the Euro will start as "nothing", no holdings of size, anywhere! The
dollar is held as reserves as "the stars in heaven"! It is to say, "the
dollar will bid for the Euro", not "the Euro will bid for the dollar"!
All currencies will "flow into the Euro for trade". But, if the Euro becomes
so strong, how to compete in world trade? It will be the price of oil that
will make the "trading field" level! The soaring US$ price of gold will
make even a 10% Euro reserve be as 100% today, in USD! Oil will become,
very, very cheap in Euros and allow that economy to do well! Many other
countries will see this and also want to join the new "world reserve currency"
that has become"the new world oil currency"!
The politics of the ECB? It is as a "side show"? We watch this new market,
yes? Sir, my words take time. I did receive two E-mail's from you.
Thank you
5/2/98 USAGOLD
(After some prelimary conversation about communication difficulties)
It is very interesting that rumors were planted that Belgium was to
be a gold seller. This happened once before when false rumors were planted
through London Financial Times and Reuters about EMI selling gold. Do you
remember? This time the rumor was planted at FWN. Soon there will be nowhere
to plant rumors because there's only so many bridges that can be burned.
Then the short sellers will have no place to go with their fiction. As
it is financial journalists had better check their sources or suffer the
consequence of being played for fools. Perhaps COMEX and LBMA need to clamp
down on this sort of thing as well. I had heard from one of my sources
that Merrill Lynch was a major player at the end of the day on Thursday
on the short side, but as always, such things are hard to verify. It makes
sense though. All of this runs together somehow. Also tragic the story
about the chairman of the Japanese central bank??? What is going on there??
I do not find comfort in such news. MK
Response: 5/1/98 USAGOLD
Yes, I would very much enjoy a liaison. It seems that you and I have
much in common in our understandings.
If the shorts have taken upon themselves to run down gold in anticipation
of the European conference becoming unglued, then I believe they have miscalculated.
I will say though that the politics could get very interesting this weekend
in Brussels. If they go with the French candidate, he will be pro-gold.
If they go with the German (Dutch) candidate, he will be pro-gold. By logical
extension, if they go with a compromise candidate, he will be pro gold.
So the politics may not matter for gold owners. Your read on this? As you
have said, the important question is what will the policy be on the dollar??
As an aside, a knowledgeable friend of mine mentioned to me yesterday that
the United States was able to maintain convertibility (!) with 25% backing.
He assures me that this is true, but I have not had a chance today to check
his assertion.
I look forward to discussing the past and future with you, as we do
live in interesting times.
I remain your friend,
Michael Kosares
5/1/98 ANOTHER (THOUGHTS!)
Mr. Kosares, This "new gold market", it is interesting, yes? The Euro
is about to create "much stress" for bulls and bears, in gold! Perhaps,
we discuss the past and the future? You have a "more private" e-mail address,
as it be for eyes of three, yours, mine and Another.
Thank You
Editor's Note:
I want to first of all welcome ANOTHER to the USAGOLD web site and thank
him for electing to post here. ANOTHER has made an important on-going contribution
to the discussion about gold in recent months and it is good to have him
back in action. That he has surfaced here -- at the USAGOLD web site --
takes a backseat to the simple fact that ANOTHER will once again be offering
up his mysterious and cryptic brand of market analysis to the delight of
his many readers. His analysis goes beyond the surface representations
which we have come to expect from mainstream sources and goes to the core
of what is occurring in the world economy. ANOTHER is a teacher, but in
our short private correspondence, I have found that he is also a seeker
of wisdom -- a philosopher who offers substantially more than dry economic
theory. He is also a consummate gentleman. Whether right or wrong, the
one thing we can say about ANOTHER is that he makes us think, and perhaps,
in the final analysis, that is his most fundamental goal. So we move forward
with these THOUGHTS!
I would like to deal with the question of ANOTHERs identity from the
outset. At all costs, ANOTHER wishes to remain anonymous. His contact with
me has been through a third party who describes himself as "the firewall
that breaks the electronic connection from the source." I have made no
attempt to find out who ANOTHER is, nor do I want to know who he is. After
long consideration of this situation, I have come to the rock-solid conclusion
that it is not only in ANOTHER's best interest to remain anonymous; it
is in our best interest as well. So, please, in your liaison with ANOTHER
(which will be offered below) and with USAGOLD, do not waste your time
or ours by making inquiries as to his identity, country of origin, etc.
We simply do not know, nor do we want to know.
I would also like to put to rest any notion that I am ANOTHER; that
I am an agent of ANOTHER; or that ANOTHER is an agent of USAGOLD, Centennial
Precious Metals, or Michael Kosares. There is no connection between us
(as you will see in these first postings) except that USAGOLD is providing
a forum, the way a newspaper provides space for opinion columns, and ANOTHER
is simply taking advantage of it. In the end, as I said in the Introduction
to "IN THE FOOTSTEPS OF GIANTS":
"(The actual identity of ANOTHER) might not matter. What does matter
is ANOTHER's educational value to all who would take the time to sift through
his (at times) arcane and cryptic, but always thought provoking, look behind
the scenes of international finance. If his THOUGHTS! are theory; they
are good theory. If they are speculation; they are reasonable speculation.
If they are supposition; they are well grounded supposition. In the final
analysis, ANOTHER offers one of the more plausible hypotheses for why the
financial markets have acted as they have in the past few years, and therein
lies his immense value to the reader no matter who he is.".
I would like to clarify one other aspect of ANOTHER's postings at the
USAGOLD web site. There will be two people posting on this page. The first
will be ANOTHER himself. From time to time his associate will also be posting.
He will be identified here as the FRIEND OF ANOTHER. There was some confusion
over this dual posting at the Kitco Discussion Group. This will hopefully
clarify the matter. The writings of both authors will be posted as I receive
them without attempting to correct misspellings, punctuation, grammatical
and/or textual errors so that analysts, researchers, and readers in general
can study the text in its original form.
ANOTHER has graciously accepted my invitation to entertain questions
from the public. Please keep the questions brief and focused on the larger
issues of economy and political economy. Another has asked that in the
interest of time that only a few questions be forwarded so I will do my
best to pick and choose the most salient. This forum is not designed for,
nor is it intended to deal with, specific investments and specific investment
strategies. To ask a question, click the E-mail button below and submit
your question. It will be forwarded to ANOTHER.
As ANOTHER would say, "We watch this new gold market, yes?" Yes, we
will. There is no formal time-table for ANOTHER's postings, so stay tuned.
I think you are going to learn from and enjoy these initial exchanges which
were originally intended to be private correspondence. On behalf of both
ANOTHER and myself, we welcome you to this venue.
Sincerely,
Michael J. Kosares/USAGOLD
Archived from the Kitco
Gold Forum
Date: Tue Apr 28 1998 20:41
ANOTHER (THOUGHTS!) ID#60253:
ALL:
My post today of the Euro outcome, "Date: Tue Apr 28 1998 16:59 ANOTHER
( THOUGHTS! ) ID#60253:", will be the last for a many days. Much is happening
now and time does not wait. I hope to return before the changes , as a
move above $360 will show the world that oil has moved for the Euro currency.
We will know soon!
Thank You
Mr. sharfin, I thank you
Date: Tue Apr 28 1998 16:59
ANOTHER (THOUGHTS!) ID#60253:
Copyright © 1998 ANOTHER/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
ALL:
I see the USAGOLD company has found the EURO important! One does ask,
what will this currency look like? It is very clear, yes? See my Date:
"Sat Apr 25 1998 22:55 ANOTHER ( THOUGHTS! ) ID#60253:", and look to the
BONN report! There the Germany does offer one answer. If they do "transfer"
their reserves portion in gold, and Germany does make up one third of the
reserves, then the Euro will have 30%+ gold backing by nature of Germany
alone!
Also, Italy has shown the market of gold will be brought to $360 by
nature of it's marking to this level. They state this publicly! They also
ask for 30%+, publicly!
Also, the Bank of England does prepare it's public for this new gold
market! A market that will deny the repayment of gold loaned, at US$ prices
that will keep Bullion Banks alive! The Euro will be strong, indeed!
Also, the UBS does ask, "what will the Cbs do with all the left over
gold"? I ask, "what will the Germans do with all the left over US$"? Truly,
with the Euro about to win the price of oil, gold will grow large in the
dollar!
As the BO England gold does not come home, the US$ reserves must "COME
HOME"!
Thank You
As soon as able, I will write of the BIS.
Date: Sun Apr 26 1998 12:49
ANOTHER (THOUGHTS!) ID#60253:
Copyright © 1998 ANOTHER/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
REPLY:
Date: Sun Apr 26 1998 12:17
Haggis__A ( ANOTHER......... ) ID#398105:
This precise reason why the EURO has to be backed by GOLD. The boys
on Wall Street and the USA will HAVE to fight this one. However, the key
is
for the Japanese and the Chinese currencies to be backed by GOLD. The
Chinese may well be on their way, the Japanese a concern as they have as
of July 97 0.5% of the Bank of Japan resources held in physical gold.
Mr. Haggis,
I think, China was buying a great deal of gold and gold commitments
( paper gold ) thru a HK trader. They became much of the "not enough physical
gold " problem for the oil/gold trade. China dumped much of this paper
and continued to take in gold even today. Japan is a story of "no happy
ending" as they are seen as "not aligned with Europe" or the BIS way of
things. The EURO may send Japan down with the USA dollar! Asia will be
lead by China, as they do understand a "Euro world". The ECB does know
that "all holes in earth, lead to china"!
Thank You
Date: Sun Apr 26 1998 11:52
ANOTHER (THOUGHTS!) ID#60253:
Copyright © 1998 ANOTHER/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
REPLY:
Date: Sun Apr 26 1998 09:41
jonesy ( @ ANOTHER re. Gold Wars ) ID#251166:
In your last post ( today 00:39 ) you say, "If the Euro wins, the Gold
Wars will begin at $360, and crude in US$ could be in the hundreds?"
Question: Re. Gold War -- What specific actions and reactions do you
envision? In other words, What possible scenario ( s ) , blow-by-blow,
may we look for in a Gold War?
Mr. Jonesy,
This battle of wealth began long before our eyes were open. It was
born as a conflict of the human spirit. Many teach the way of "honest dealings"
and "earn your own way", then force their neighbor to accept a currency
debt receipt, as payment for "real commerce goods". The world reserve currency
is held by "default" not choice. Today. every digital money is a product
of the US$ by nature of "it being the book keeping reserve". To this extent,
the US$ is the only world currency! To this end, noone can see the true
size of the "mismatch" in gold as money in US$. No country, Japan included,
can sell dollar reserves without destroying their own currency! The BIS
does not recognize other currencies as reserves, as they are, in themselves,
a dollar product!
This "new gold war", it will be as "none before". The BIS will bring
gold into the $320 to $360 range for the Euro. The US will attack the Euro
for what it has become, "a new world oil currency" offered to remove the
oil backing from the US$. At first, the dollar will be partially sold by
many Cbs, especially the ones with little local oil, Japan, Yes? As unneeded
dollars are set free, the true value of real things will be seen in dollar
terms, gold, cars, oil, etc.. In this light, one can see why many large
buyers have been taking in gold, as it is held in terms of value of "after
the war". Not the traded price of today.
Sir;
Your life passes, thoughts change and a persons perception of value
does mature. The world, today does also mature! You will find a new financial
future, in a value from the past. The world will embrace gold as "a better
inheritance for our children" for it has now become a "lifetime holding".
It is "the human nature" to be social, and many will not see this "new
future" until it "has use from others".
"it is the way of people, some are part of the future, as they become
the history of the past"
Thank You
Date: Sun Apr 26 1998 00:39
ANOTHER (THOUGHTS!) ID#60253:
Copyright © 1998 ANOTHER/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
REPLY:
Date: Sat Apr 25 1998 23:53
PrivateInvestor ( Another thinks ) ID#225283:
Another please tell me what you think of the current situation in the
world oil markets. Countries such as Mexico are seeing 50% of all government
revenues dry up as the price of oil continues to go south...The same must
be true of our gold holding friends in the middle east...What are your
prognostications???
Sir,
We are close to "much change". The oil reserves of the middle east
show a history of value delivered for currencies of "broken promises"!
The supply of oil was never the problem, only the "market of oil" in "what
kind of money" that caused much distrust. Today, many try to understand
oil thru a currency that cannot offer a final payment of true value. I
tell you, supply and demand mean nothing in this relm. The "fight", is
to bring oil down in US$ terms, then convert to an "open" partial gold
payment. With gold priced correctly, oil would be very cheap for western,
non producers. But, the owners of "local reserves" as Mexico, would suffer
as gold would not be allowed for payment to them. The Euro, it could be
the result of this war.
If the Euro wins, the Gold Wars will begin at $360, and crude in US$
could be in the hundreds?
Much is still as "up in air", we watch for a while.
I must be gone for a time.
Thank You
Date: Sun Apr 26 1998 00:06
ANOTHER (THOUGHTS!) ID#60253:
Copyright © 1998 ANOTHER/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
REPLY:
Date: Sat Apr 25 1998 23:13
aurophile ( ANOTHER ) ID#256326:
The US does not "back" its currency with specific reserves as other
nations do ( of necessity ) as a matter of policy, but it does have the
reserves of gold and foreign currency. The German move, if it happens,
is simply accounting legerdemain ( ledger-demain? ) , and is no more meaningful
in reality than the Federal Reserve's monetizing of US debt.
Sir,
This "matter of policy", it is without reason? If US$ is reserve for
all other currencies, how can other currencies be held as reserve for US$?
When one ask question, "does chicken back egg, or egg back chicken ", a
good reply comes as "matter of policy? Yes?
You state:
" In the modern system, gold is of far less usefulness to a currency's
essential value than the political, legal, and military "currency" of its
issuer."
Sir,
Fifty years of modern history do not show this to be true. Political,
legal and military "currencies" do come and go with the "Seasons", but
"gold currency" did keep promise for citizens of changing times!
Date: Sat Apr 25 1998 23:27
Auric ( EMU Question ) ID#255151:
Ok, let's say the EMU is 10% Gold backed. How do you know that in a
year or two the CB of Europe won't change the rules in midstream. What's
to stop them, say in the year 2000, from deciding that the EMU will only
be 5% Gold backed? How firm is this promise?
Sir,
When physical gold trades by side of EURO, the rules will hold even
at three fourths stream!
thank you
Date: Sat Apr 25 1998 23:35
ANOTHER (THOUGHTS!) ID#60253:
Copyright © 1998 ANOTHER/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
All:
The Swiss, not dumb! There will come a time when gold and Euro are as
"the same". Not in price or value, but as used for "real money". The Swiss
will sell, just not as you think "sell". In that time, gold will be "transferred"
to other Cbs as money or real reserves.
Money is not what you afford, you earn it! In the near future, gold
money will buy more than dollar money, much more! It is as to compare a
one dollar bill to a hundred dollar bill, both money, just one buys more!
Many think the only way gold can rise in dollar terms is if USA prints
to many! Truly, they have printed to many already. Gold will rise in dollar
terms, many thousands even if treasury inflates currency no more. This
rise in price will cost London much! You have seen the Bank of England
report of gold that does not come home?
We watch this new gold market together, yes?
Thank You
Date: Sat Apr 25 1998 22:55
ANOTHER (THOUGHTS!) ID#60253:
Copyright © 1998 ANOTHER/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Mr TYoung:
Please read and consider this thinking person, as many do read your
thoughts!
One must take this thought into consideration when deciding weather
to hold dollars or the Euro. "The United States Government does not hold
any reserves against it's currency". Truly, this can only be the case of
the world reserve money. Indeed, all other currencies have reserves of
US$ to back them, yet only the dollar has nothing! Yes, the USA does hold
many billions in foreign exchange, to use in the defense of maintaining
exchange rates against the dollar. However, these holdings are not reserves.
When the US government does not take in enough taxes to meet expenses,
it sells treasury debt to make up the difference. When no one bids for
this debt at an "acceptable" interest rate, the Federal Reserve bank buys
the debt, outright! It gives printed cash to Washington and then, "holds
the new treasury debt ( bond ) as backing for the issued cash!
Everyone understands the implications of this. Or do they? In reality,
when the US government needs money, it doesn't sell debt! It "TRANSFERS"
the obligation of it's citizens to pay future real production ( taxes )
as a "backing" for it's newly printed currency! As this process has been
going on for decades, it has built up a debt of "real production payments"
that it's citizens can never pay. Further, as the world reserve, this currency
is held thru proxy "by every single person on this planet" that uses paper
to trade anything!
It is true, that in times past when a currency is inflated ( over printed
) to a point of only 10% real gold backing, the government could revalue
gold 90% upward and the currency was 100% backed again! A terrible blow
to the holders of this paper, but at least the money system survived! Today,
the worlds currency, the US$, by default, would require a gold price of
many, many thousands to back it without using it's citizens as collateral!
The only problem with this is the US gold stock is so small, that even
at $10,000/oz, a large deflation would be necessary to decrease the outstanding
US currency to this gold backing level!
Now, consider the Euro. It will have much real gold backing from the
beginning. Even at 10% to 30%, the Euro will be the equivalent of a 100%
gold backed dollar, when the world comes off the dollar standard! The selling
of old dollar reserves, alone will reprice gold in US$ terms of at least
$6,000/oz! It's present interbank reserve value.
Read the BONN report again:
""BT 1 APR 1998 BONN
Buba seen transferring gold to new Euro central bank
THE Bundesbank, which must provide about one-third of reserves of the
new European Central Bank ( ECB ) , may decide to transfer most of its
share in gold, providing a windfall for the German budget, analysts said.
Such a move would raise public confidence by backing the new currency
with gold, and would support gold prices by reassuring investors the Bundesbank
won't sell excess reserves on the market, an analyst said.
In addition, the transfer would be recorded at market prices, whereas
the gold is now valued at less than one-third its market value. That would
mean a multibillion-mark paper gain the government could book against debt.
"It would be a neat move," said Alison Cottrell, economist at PaineWebber
International in London. "There's the psychology factor of the ECB holding
gold, the government would benefit from a revaluation and it should, at
the very least, put a floor under the gold price."
The European Central Bank will go into operation on Jan 1, the same
day the euro becomes the currency for an expected 11 nations. Germany,
because it's the European Union's largest economy and most populous country,
will have to provide about one-third of the 50 billion Ecus ( S$86.5 billion
) the new bank will need in its role to set monetary policy.
The Bundesbank, Europe's largest holder of gold, has around 95 million
ounces, valued on its books at 13.7 billion marks ( S$11.9 billion ) .
The market value is about 55 billion marks.
A Bundesbank spokesman wouldn't comment on what the central bank's plans
are, saying that won't happen until the member states for monetary union
are named and the members of the European Central Bank are appointed. --
Bloomberg""
Mr. Young,
The German CB will not be selling gold to the new ECB for dollars!
This "TRANSFER" will be in terms of "German Mark reserve requirements"
that will soon be the "German Euro currency reserves"! Soon, European oil
purchases will be made in, partial gold backed Euro's that "in US dollar
terms", will be the same as 100% gold backed currency! As Another would
say: Gold and oil will never flow in the same direction!
Sir,
you think long and hard on this: in USA , this paper currency, it show
not the true wealth of persons assets!
Another
Thank You
Date: Sat Apr 25 1998 21:49
ANOTHER (THOUGHTS!) ID#60253:
Mr. TYoung,
Will the German government "sell" gold to the new ECB, or will they
"transfer" it? A large difference, Yes? I send a post for this, this day.
Thank You
Date: Sun Apr 19 1998 16:04
ANOTHER (THOUGHTS!) ID#60253:
Copyright © 1998 ANOTHER/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
REPLY:
Date: Sun Apr 19 1998 15:17
aurophile ( ANOTHER ( THOUGHTS ) ) ID#256326:
Many, perhaps all, of the mines will end up being owned by the lenders
who have also lent mine management's rope for their own hanging. Although
it is a special case, the Pegasus story is instructive in this regard.
Mr. Aurophile,
I think, in the years to come, many lenders, as Bullion Banks, will
find much rope in great supply, offered to them, not the mines! These banks,
are in middle with no way to settle, as national governments buy mine production!
It is today, treasuries only can print currency, so will it be tomorrow
that only government buy and give citizens real money, gold!
I will be gone for a time! We talk again, yes?
Thank You
Date: Sun Apr 19 1998 15:49
ANOTHER (THOUGHTS!) ID#60253:
Copyright © 1998 ANOTHER/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Date: Sun Apr 19 1998 14:31
mozel ( @ANOTHER ) ID#153102:
" Was Gold Leasing by CB's an accidental mistake or an intentional mistake
do you think?"
Mr. Mozel,
This world of money, it is a fierce one! I ask all, does anyone know
a money manager with money for loan at 2%? No? Does not even the bank of
Canada sell gold outright and receive "high" interest on cash? Is a CB
that sells/leases gold dumb? NEVER!
If they sell gold, a way is clear to "bring gold back" for the nation!
Canada has local mines, Australia has local mines, Belgium has South African
mines! If they lease gold, it is for a purpose to buy "something" for the
new supply to the market! The interest on the loan is for public view,
as a "free gold loan" is not acceptable!
It truly started with Barrick, in Canada in the 80s. It was a "thin
market", but grew big in oil. I think "intentional mistake" that was, as
is said, "trial balloon"?
Thank You
Date: Sun Apr 19 1998 15:09
ANOTHER (THOUGHTS!) ID#60253:
Copyright © 1998 ANOTHER/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
REPLY:
Date: Sun Apr 19 1998 03:38
Drifter ( ANOTHER'S Thoughts ) ID#270447
Date: Sun Apr 19 1998 14:18
OLD GOLD ( ) ID#238295:
There will be ample time for holders of gold bullion and gold shares
to sell their holdings for huge profits. Drifter was right on target here.
Let's worry about getting POG to $350 this year. We have a long way to
go on the upside before confiscation and/or taxation becomes a realistic
concern.
Mr. Drifter and Mr. Old Gold,
If you search the "thoughts" posts provided by Mr. Sharfin, many of
your conclusions are addressed. Many do feel that if "the gold mines were
safe in the past", "they will be safe in the future". I submit this persons
thinking for your consideration:
"The Western public has always thought of gold as money. Even after
the 70s and 80s, most private investors held a small side thought, that
gold was still, somehow dollar money. It was only during the late 80s and
90s that people started to completely lose the connection of paper spending
money and gold. Clearly, all evidence shows that prior to the 90s and particularly
prior to the 50s, the push was to change the publics thinking away from
gold money, to paper currency as money. In this political climate, gold
mine investments were the correct move, as the business of gold was encouraged
over the usage of gold as money! That is why the metal was called in and
the mines were untouched.
However, today, the change will be counter to the prevailing public
opinion, that gold "is not money". The world debt system and currency exchange,
as we have know it will implode and leave little room for political maneuvering.
The governments will revalue gold and "demand" that the public carry it
and use it! It will be the source of all gold, the mines, that will be
controlled! That's Controlled, with a capitol "C", not confiscated!"
Mr. Old Gold,
Sir, I do read your writings and consider your thoughts!
Thank You
Date: Sun Apr 19 1998 14:25
ANOTHER (THOUGHTS!) ID#60253:
Copyright © 1998 ANOTHER/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
REPLY:
Date: Sun Apr 19 1998 00:20
mozel ( @JTF ) ID#153102:
A man who dueled as ANOTHER proposes would have had no honor. He would
have been shot down like a dog by the seconds. Without trustworthy, honorable
seconds to enforce the law of dueling, there is not a duel, just a fight
and shooting on sight.
Mr. Mozel,
You do understand the world, as it is, not as you are told! You thoughts
offer much.
In the Duel of Gold and Currencies, this time, no seconds will stand!
I think, they Duel also. But, your perception of 'Honor" I agree with!
Thank You
Date: Sun Apr 19 1998 14:14
ANOTHER (THOUGHTS!) ID#60253:
Copyright © 1998 ANOTHER/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
ALL, I could not finish from last post. Have time and will continue
now for a short time.
REPLY:
Date: Sun Apr 19 1998 01:42
chas ( Another, rephrase of question ) ID#342282:
In reference to large volume oil producers' sales for currency ( paper
) , do they have to use this currency to buy the gold they prefer, or is
there another method or methods to acquire the gold? The main question
is, if there is another method"?
Mr Chas,
Yes. Many say, ME producers have no extra money for gold. They are
in debt and "just making it". I say, they have much money, just not "your
perception of money"! Many producers do not pump at "all out rate", and
worlds largest proven reserves are in ground. In "gold market world", oil
is wealth, and oil is money! It is the "good trade" to use "oil in ground"
as backing to buy much paper "commitment for gold"! Future "currency" price
of oil in ground is much unsure, but gold has world CB backing to be of
great value, always! CB say, "your oil at $15 to $25, this is good as long
as flowing", and say also " your oil pumps shut off, what price gold to
turn back on?"
You see, in real world, gold is money, oil is money. But paper currency,
it is only a receipt for commerce.
Thank you
Date: Sun Apr 19 1998 00:43
ANOTHER (THOUGHTS!) ID#60253:
Copyright © 1998 ANOTHER/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
REPLY:
Date: Sat Apr 18 1998 23:03
chas ( Another re currency flood ) ID#342282:
Mr. Chas, I do not understand your question?
Date: Sat Apr 18 1998 23:32
BillD ( @ANOTHER ) ID#261269:
When would you expect these events to start moving the price of gold
upwards?
Mr. BillD,
When the Cbs lose control. $360? Perhaps?
Date: Sat Apr 18 1998 23:48
Allen ( USA ) ( ANOTHER ) ID#255190:
Copyright © 1998 Allen ( USA ) /Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Appearantly the percentage will be revealed in early May along with
the naming of the president of the ECB. Do you expect that this will be
when this begins to change?
The EURO is not done yet, much political fighting yet. It may change
again, after May!
What do you see as the sign or evidence that the first phase has commenced
( digital currency units being exchanged for real things ) ? Similarly
what do you see as the sign or evidence that the second phase of dumping
the US Dollar has commenced?
See my post to BillD.
"I wonder what avenue these people will take to secure physical property
since most commodity contracts are really just more paper?
A problem for persons that do todays work, tomorrow!
Do you see the 4080 delivery notices for gold at the COMEX as a sign
of this type of effort to take delivery of physical metal? Since there
is only enough gold to accomodate 1475 contracts what will happen to the
rest???
I think, good minds will find a way to work this problem out. We will
watch!
Thank You, Mr. Allen
Date: Sun Apr 19 1998 00:18
ANOTHER (THOUGHTS!) ID#60253:
REPLY:
Date: Sat Apr 18 1998 22:38
JTF ( Only US gold mines confiscated? )
Mr. JTF,
Please see my Date: Sat Apr 18 1998 22:36
ANOTHER ( THOUGHTS! ) ID#60253:
Thank You
Date: Sun Apr 19 1998 00:08
ANOTHER (THOUGHTS!) ID#60253:
Copyright © 1998 ANOTHER/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
REPLY:
Date: Sat Apr 18 1998 22:31
LIBERTY__A ( Gold mining stocks and their golden path! ) ID#263379:
Copyright © 1998 LIBERTY__A/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Mr. Another,
"How do you envision gold availability at this level?
"can you be specific. Is this plan a viable one, and what caveats to
you envision?
Mr. Liberty_A,
Sir, the plan is good, the question is, "how good is your broker"?
Noone can know how this world change will come about, in specifics. The
gold market may lock at $400? Or $4,000! When the public perception does
come to understand, many entities I know of will not be buying "at the
market" as your broker will. These ones, they will be "above the market",
"well above the market"! Will you bid $1,000 when your broker screen shows
$475? I myself, as a country will be "there"! You sir, will stand well
behind most in line.
I tell my children, as you may tell yours:
"when a thousand hungry lions fight for one scrap of food, small dogs
should hide with what's in their belly"
Thank You
Date: Sat Apr 18 1998 23:46
ANOTHER (THOUGHTS!) ID#60253:
Copyright © 1998 ANOTHER/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
REPLY:
Date: Sat Apr 18 1998 22:25
Carl ( @Another ) ID#341189:
"How do you see a company like for example Barrick, which holds "gold
in the ground" in several countries"? Will each country simply take their
gold? If gold is to held for the public good in the future, how would oil
be purchased by private companies?
Mr. Carl,
See my last reply for the GCH. I think Barrick is a large bank and
will require many good robbers! These government treasuries, good minds
they have, I have seen!
Gold for the public good will be in the form of "money in the hand".
A Dinar and a Euro for oil? We will see?
Thank You
Date: Sat Apr 18 1998 23:27
ANOTHER (THOUGHTS!) ID#60253:
Copyright © 1998 ANOTHER/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
REPLY:
Date: Sat Apr 18 1998 22:18
GOLDEN CHEESEHEAD ( HERR ANOTHER! ) ID#431263:
Copyright © 1998 GOLDEN CHEESEHEAD/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
"why gold mining operators who pay their miners in devalued local currencies
and sell production in US dollars will be harmed when gold revalues currencies?
Won't gold be king at that point?"
Mr. GCH,
I think the governments will change the rules, just before you decide
to sell. It is the way of life, yes? Is it not the "human nature" to rob
the bank with the most money?
Time will prove all things!
Thank You
Date: Sat Apr 18 1998 23:17
ANOTHER (THOUGHTS!) ID#60253:
Copyright © 1998 ANOTHER/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
REPLY:
Date: Sat Apr 18 1998 22:07
Myrmidon ( @ ANOTHER on "REAL THINGS" ) ID#339212:
Copyright © 1998 Myrmidon/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
"My question to you is this: The large anticipated rise of gold will
it not be relative to currencies? Even if gold is priced relative to oil,
even the price of oil is equated to currencies"?
Mr. Myrmidon,
The present digital money undervalues all real things in terms of "gold
real money". This process hides the "current debt" that by default, encumbers
all assets denominated in "digital currency"! It is to say " your wealth
isn't as great as your currency says it is"!
For persons who "settle up" and convert to real things and gold, they
have:
"taken two steps to the right, before the opponent has turned" In a
Dual it is cheating, but in "life and death", it is a "good move", yes?
Thank you
Date: Sat Apr 18 1998 23:00
ANOTHER (THOUGHTS!) ID#60253:
Copyright © 1998 ANOTHER/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
REPLY:
Date: Sat Apr 18 1998 21:55
Donald__A ( @Another ) ID#26793:
Copyright © 1998 Donald__A/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Lesser countries with currencies of many zeroes do not operate well.
If there are no citizens who will save those currencies then there can
be no capital to construct factories, plant crops or build housing for
a comfortable life. They will remain beggars forever. Worthless paper currencies
are now used in every country of the world. There is no safe place to save.
Thus there can be no capital and no capitalism. It is only a matter of
time. What will there be available to use the trade receipts for? Who will
need oil in such a world? Governments must return to gold or they will
perish. It is only a matter of time.
Mr. Donald_A,
I have seen your view often. In this present world, it is a correct
thought! But, perceptions of "capital" and what represents "capital" do
change. Today, you use paper as a real value, and this debt currency is
used to denominate the "worth of your assets" for your future. It is to
say, "my savings, they equal the debt of my currency"! On this foundation,
your production of goods and services are built. I submit, that without
change, this economy will bring "beggars" into your family! We will not
find this fate, gold will become "new money" and this money will buy much,
with confidence. Yes, It is a matter of time.
Thank You
Date: Sat Apr 18 1998 22:36
ANOTHER (THOUGHTS!) ID#60253:
REPLY:
Date: Sat Apr 18 1998 21:44
Silverbaron ( ANOTHER ) ID#288295:
ANOTHER:In the past you have spoken of BIS gold purchases; can you tell
us how much gold is owned by the BIS? Thank you.
Mr. Silverbaron, I will address a full post to this question. In a day
or so. It is very interesting, this "Bank of Banks", yes?
thank you
Date: Sat Apr 18 1998 22:30
ANOTHER (THOUGHTS!) ID#60253:
REPLY:
Date: Sat Apr 18 1998 21:1
Pete ( All, ANOTHER-Who is selling gold? ) ID#222231
Mr. Pete,
These money printers, they do much and fool noone. "Follow in the footsteps
of giants", as they take in real gold. Do so and the future will show your
wisdom from today!
thank you
Date: Sat Apr 18 1998 22:14
ANOTHER (THOUGHTS!) ID#60253:
REPLY:
Date: Sat Apr 18 1998 21:14
ForkLift__A ( Another ) ID#34194:
Will Iran stand for Saudi Arabia? Would they stand against the superpowers
as equals in armaments? Would Kuwait be sensitive to such an alignment?
Mr. ForkLift,
I did not think we would ever see this. In the end, it may be seen
that the "gold Dinar" may one day be a common currency for all the Gulf
region. To this end, all will stand together! We must watch this possible
change, as it could be a challenge to understand.
Thank You
Date: Sat Apr 18 1998 22:01
ANOTHER (THOUGHTS!) ID#60253:
Copyright © 1998 ANOTHER/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
REPLY:
Date: Sat Apr 18 1998 21:04
Carl ( @Another ) ID#341189:
Questions: Do you have a belief about whether the euro will be attractive
to oil producers as an oil currency? If the price of gold in dollars begins
to rise and the dollar also strengthens against other currencies, as you
suggest, will not this accurate the purchase of gold by holders of other
currencies?
Mr. Carl,
The partial backing of the Euro with gold is a resent thing. It was
to be only 5% with the understanding that most "European" oil buys would
be settled in Euro. The oil alone would give the Euro "reserve status".
Now the BIS has worked to bring a possible "80%" of all world buys settled
in Euro if 15% to 30% gold is held. This will bring the end of US$ holdings
to act as reserves! In this way, the dollar price of gold would go to "no
end"! This would further allow the Euro to become "top gun" as the US would
even be forced to buy Euros to buy oil!
Many other currencies would come off the dollar standard as gold rises
in their terms.
Make no mistake, all this will bring much pressure to gold mine operators.
Mr. Carl, if you hold mine stock, you will stand behind many others when
time to sell!
In a dual, it is best to move two steps to right, before one does turn
and fire, yes?
thank you
Date: Sat Apr 18 1998 21:31
ANOTHER (THOUGHTS!) ID#60253:
Copyright © 1998 ANOTHER/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
REPLY:
Date: Sat Apr 18 1998 19:51
GOLDEN CHEESEHEAD
"then the true inflation of the US dollar over the last 20 years, since
the last oil shock, would be clearly revealed"?
Mr. GCH,
Today, digital currencies are not to hold value, but to use for trade
only. I do wonder why many were so worried for price inflation, as it cannot
destroy value of a currency that holds not worth as paper? The dollar of
your youth is not the same item. This modern paper is but a "receipt in
commerce"! If a person holds a "paper trade receipt" as a savings for life,
how can wealth be gained? Look to many lesser countries with currencies
of many zeros, this paper is still in use. Gold has gained much in these
hands and the economy still continues.
Many look to the Dow Jones, and see large gains! But, I say, gains in
terms of what? World paper currencies? These gains are not of real things,
nor can they ever be totally traded for real things! And, these gains,
they come with great risk, yes? For my children, I hold no risk with gold!
Look now, as the CB money makers do now change the rules of engagement!
Many zeros will be added to the present "world reserve currency" in "big
rush" as the great digital gains of these past few years become as "dreams
on a desert night"!
Thank you
Date: Sat Apr 18 1998 20:52
ANOTHER (THOUGHTS!) ID#60253:
Copyright © 1998 ANOTHER/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
ALL:
The current "paper gold market" is not a physical gold trading arena,
as many here have observed and discussed. Truly, in every sense, it is
a "currency market" as contracts are settled in the prevailing "currency
values" of gold. It is through this process, that gold is purchased "as
a stated value in currency terms", not in physical terms. It is known,
that a switch to trading of gold to "physical terms" of the same volume
as today, would not only bring a huge revaluation in price, it would also
destroy the market. The large dealers of today, could not raise the reserves
needed to trade a physical market of many thousands an ounce! It is this
"possible switch" to "physical trading" that would drastically devalue
all currencies, including oil, that much worries the CBs.
The US$ is soon to become a " regular paper currency"! To this end,
holders of US dollars and US$ assets, must make a decision that will impact
all assets, worldwide! To this end, assets will move to "physical gold
" and cash dollars" first, driving up the dollar against all currencies.
Then the dollar will be sold as it is deployed into real things.
This change will occur before 2000, as it is beginning now, where no
one can see!
As Another would say, "we watch this new gold market, together, yes",
Yes!
Date: Sat Apr 18 1998 19:18
ANOTHER (THOUGHTS!) ID#60253:
Copyright © 1998 ANOTHER/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Mr. Sharfin, I thank you for saving my posts. Now I ask you?
Please read these words and consider:
" What Is The Real Price Of Gold IN The Central Bank World?"
If we look back thru the writings of Another, we find an old post that
says something to this effect, "You think I am a fool because I trade gold
for thousands US$ an ounce". It was a strange statement, but stranger still
that no one asked about this. In the very beginning of these "THOUGHTS",
the point was offered that gold had increased "dramatically in value these
past few years"! This thinking was offered, even as it's currency price
was falling to new many year lows. I ask about it today, especially in
light of the post of :
"Date: Fri Apr 17 1998 17:11 Aragorn III ( Some thoughts for A.Goose
in regard to COMEX and G*O*L*D ) ID#212323"
It is indeed, a paper game Mr. Aragorn, but it is a game of "some advantage",
if one can see clearly. The one that posts using SDRer, has shown many
times how "Gold Value" is used in international trade. What cannot be seen
is the value of gold in the "INTERBANK" world. Here is the realm of "true
valuations" in paper currency terms. It is a real shocker for lesser eyes.
In this modern world, the current value of every asset is formed by
a relationship of gold/currencies/oil. This cross relationship is the "very
basis of our modern world banking system"!
Through this basis, all currencies are given value as the local government
treasuries hold US$ as reserves. The US$ is given backing as it's government
is guaranteed, that all crude oil, worldwide, will be settled in dollars.
An oil reserve backing, if you will. And, the "value" that the "future
supply of "currency traded "oil" imparts to the world economy, is guaranteed
by an "INTERBANK paper gold MARKET" that values "physical bullion" in the
Thousands!
I'll let Another explain:
But, how can this be, you ask? It is done, "right before your eyes"
and we see it not! I ask you, if you have one ounce of gold, and sell it
on the market for $300, it is worth $300, yes? Now, what if CB hold one
ounce of gold, and sell it twenty times, that one ounce is now worth $6,000,
no? The difference between you and CB? The persons that hold "interbank"
IOU for gold, value it at the multiple of leases/sales made against reserves.
This leverage, it is held for performance on bank part. The BIS, it force
performance, on any economy! You ask Korea about gold, yes?
This is why oil can take a small amount of physical gold out of world
supply, at current "freely traded", "managed prices", and hold it at a
many times valuation. That is what gives this "new world gold market" much
value in trade at high levels. Look even at your "Comex", and divide the
daily volume by the "eligible stocks for delivery". That number ( perhaps
three million ounces divided by 150,000 stocks, deliverable, times the
spot close gives close, real world price of physical, $6,000. It follows
close to paper trade on LBMA.
You see, "physical gold is of much greater value than public traders
can move it for"! In your world, this cannot be, but it is, and will show
for all to see in your time.
Gold is now being managed back to the $320 - $360 range. But, this few
dollars of value is of little use, as forces are at work that will break
$360! The CBs are loosing control. I write again in hour or so. We talk
then, please.
Thank you
Date: Thu Apr 16 1998 07:33
ANOTHER (THOUGHTS!) ID#60253:
All:
Together, we can talk of this new gold market. In a day, or two, we
will have much to discuss. I look forward to this.
The Kitco Co., it offers more to the world than a business, "it provides
a stage for minds to meet"! This service is of much value to all, yes?
Thank You
Date: Thu Apr 09 1998 19:22
ANOTHER (THOUGHTS!) ID#60253:
Copyright © 1998 ANOTHER/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Mr. LGB,
I did come to Kitco with only my "THOUGHTS" to share. This thinking
was offered to all and is "as free as the wind". Even as my writings were
discussed by many, I did never find you to be a "fraud" or a "hoxier",
as your words were offered with "good intent". Please, find my words "of
record" that were spoken against you, and show them, "here"?
I find not the reason for your purpose of speech! It offers a nature
of "confrontation" and "disruption" for persons of "simple ways" and "thoughts",
such as I. As you have your "direction for life", I have a "purpose in
life".
I wish you the blessing, "to walk tall with wealth, for all your days",
"that one may complete the journey that is given for all to travel". I
do instruct "another" to send my "thoughts" where "ears do not bite"!
Good Luck!
Thank You
Date: Sun Apr 05 1998 20:06
ANOTHER (THOUGHTS!) ID#60253:
Copyright © 1998 ANOTHER/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
REPLY:
Date: Sun Apr 05 1998 15:20
oris ( Fred ) ID#238422:
"Is it possible that gold will rise to $30,000/oz in the period of nearest
10 years?"
If you say to yourself: "Yes, it's possible!" then ask yourself a question:
"But why? But how?".
To All:
This question, is asked much! To this I also add "what price is money?
Many look to gold and say, "at $30,000, every mine would produce so
much that the price will not last", and "with cost to produce below $1,000,
all persons would mine gold"! I say, you look at gold and see only a commodity.
As world oil currency, it will not be this way. To offer the question:
Your US$, it does cost only one cent or less to produce. It is also
a paper commodity, yes? Does the world go into the "paper dollar business"
because it can be sold for a dollar and produced for "one cent"? I ask
the Mr. Sharfin, "who would buy or who could afford this "dollar" at such
a price? Would not every person sell these "paper dollars" as they are
priced so far above production cost? No. And the world, today, does produce
these paper pieces as "to no end", yet all persons hold dollars for value!
Even reserves!
When any commodity becomes money, the free market is not allowed to
produce such without laws to govern that production. As any person, worldwide
can produce dollars and sell them as a business, it is "against the law".
In the time to come, it will be this way with gold also.
The true value of gold, as a monetary currency, in today's current US$
values, is over $30,000. If all currencies were destroyed, and gold only
was used, this value would be higher. However, currencies will be used
in the future, as today, only their value in trade will change. They will
no longer be held as reserves, without gold at their side!
The time is not that far away for all to learn this, we watch these
changes together, yes?
Thank you
Date: Sun Apr 05 1998 00:14
ANOTHER (THOUGHTS!) ID#60253:
REPLY,
Date: Sun Apr 05 1998 00:01
EJ ( ANOTHER: what do you expect as the timetable for the shift?
EJ,
With or without the Euro, we will change in the next few years or less!
"Money does never change, as do dreams of wealth
So we search for our future, but find out true worth from the past"
I will be gone for a time.
Thank you
Date: Sat Apr 04 1998 23:52
ANOTHER (THOUGHTS!) ID#60253:
Copyright © 1998 ANOTHER/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
REPLY:
Date: Sat Apr 04 1998 23:12
ALBERICH__A ( @Another: EURO - Who Defends Arabia ? ) ID#254112:
" I'm very interested in your thoughts about the future impact of the
possibility of a temporarily imploding US economy, the breakdown of the
US$ as a reserve currency, on the geopolitical situation, especially on
the ME?"
Sir,
From the past, to this day, America has held the "reserve currency"
for the world. In that time, it has been the economic fuel for all economies.
This is as it should be. However, this fuel was supplied as debt, borrowed
from the future of children yet unborn. Neither myself, or any other person
should enrich their home by holding the assets that give "bondage upon
future life". It is as a "trader" that plays any side, without recourse
for who is destroyed! "An investment without honor brings no gain to ones
life"!
When the dollar is displaced, it will be as a "leveling" of the world
economy. A few will learn to walk without the luxury of holding a debt
upon others, "as an asset for gain". But, for every one that is brought
low, ten others will gain from the loss of this dollar burden. And when
one gains more in life than before, that same does "buy more" and such
will be the new engine for the world economy under a new currency. A golden
future is "just ahead"!
We must wait to view this "geopolitical situation".
Thank you
Date: Sat Apr 04 1998 23:20
ANOTHER (THOUGHTS!) ID#60253:
REPLY,
Date: Thu Mar 26 1998 00:26
Myrmidon ( @ Another ) ID#345268:
" the US will confiscate gold coins and bullion some day? "
Sir,
I think, that gold will be viewed as money by the USA government. It's
new, much higher price will offer a "way out" from many economic sins.
In that day, persons will not try to "buy" gold, as it will already be
used "as currency". To ask, "how can one afford $30,000 gold" would sound
as today as "how can anyone afford $30,000 in savings account"? One does
earn money, not afford it, yes?
Thank you
Date: Sat Apr 04 1998 22:42
ANOTHER (THOUGHTS!) ID#60253:
Copyright © 1998 ANOTHER/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
REPLY:
Date: Sat Apr 04 1998 20:57
sharefin ( How can this be? ) ID#284255:
ANOTHER
" How can they reprice gold to $30,000? "
Mr. Sharfin,
This question from you, it proves for my eyes what I have said. Indeed,
if I viewed as a western person, gold money as $30,000 paper dollar credits,
my thoughts would also show " this cannot be"! But, from another world,
I view this US$ and say "how can it be of such value to all and have numbers
as the stars in heaven"? Please understand, money as paper or metal is
as "perception of value in the minds of people". If all the gold held by
earth were placed in the hands as money, it would be used to revalue every
"real thing" at a fair price. A tiny fraction of gold would buy much production
of goods and services, on a basis equal for all men, not as a debt for
later settlement, as currencies are now!
Thank you
Date: Sat Apr 04 1998 20:42
ANOTHER (THOUGHTS!) ID#60253:
Copyright © 1998 ANOTHER/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
REPLY:
Date: Tue Mar 31 1998 09:58
Allen ( USA ) ( ANOTHER ( THOUGHTS! ) ) ID#246224
" So the Euro will be an alternative to this? Its creators must have
known that this 'inflation' of the USA and LBMA markets was not liked by
oil. When was this recognized? Was this at the time of the Gulf War ( as
you have implied in the past ) ? How was it recognized or communicated
to Europe? Certainly the Euro has been built with this 'market' in mind?
"
Allen,
The link to my writing was broken during our discussion. Some items
were lost. I do now understand your thoughts. I will now reply, "as able,
over time".
The Gulf War was the last insult! It was viewed as an attempt to show
an "unstable area", but the war itself was not intentional, events were
"out of control".
We must grasp that all commerce is done, at least, in the US dollar
concept of "valuations of real things". In this way, " the true value of
the purchase of real money" is hidden from view! Persons will say in the
future, "how could gold be $500 one day and $5,000 the next"? I tell you
now, it is already past that level, as in "present reserve currency dealings"
it is not seen! Consider, that in all that you do and think, your "western
values" are of paper concepts. From your birth, real things are not used
to cross value themselves! When the battle to keep gold from devaluing
oil ( in direct gold for oil terms ) is lost, the dollar will find "no
problem" with $30,000 gold, as it will be seen as a "benefit for all" and
"why did noone see this sooner"?
Thank you
Date: Sat Apr 04 1998 19:55
ANOTHER (THOUGHTS!) ID#60253:
Copyright © 1998 ANOTHER/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
All:
I do try and go back to complete where we left off. This question was
offered for thought:
" Date: Wed Mar 25 1998 23:31 ANOTHER ( THOUGHTS! ) ID#60253:
All: I ask you, why did the world go off the gold standard in the early
70s? You have an answer, yes? For all the problems this created, could
the countries not just revalue gold upward, to say $300 ( back then ) ?
What was the real reason the world entered a period of "freely traded"
"managed gold"? "
This question has more impact on the gold market of today than it did
then! In days past, it was held as good knowledge that the US stopped gold
backing to protect the dollar and keep gold from leaving to other shores.
But, in the same time frame, all central banks did sell gold to all
persons, even the US. All treasuries held gold and dollars as reserves.
To what end did the world financial system gain with the dollar off gold
backing, and then allowed to "dirty float" against all currencies? Would
the world not have been better off to find gold revalued to, say $300 and
then begin a "dirty float"? Noone would have lost, and the inflation would
have , at best, not have been worse!
Truly, I tell the reason for this action. The US oil companies knew
that the cheap reserves were found. The governments knew this also. The
only low cost oil reserves in the world at this time were in the Middle
East, and their cost to find and produce was very low. It was known, that,
in time, ALL oil would come from this land. As much higher US dollar prices
were needed to allow exploration and production of other reserves, worldwide.
But, how to get crude prices, up, when the Gulf States were OK to pump
and produce in exchange for "gold backed dollars"? I will not name the
gentlemen that brought this thinking to the surface in that era, but it
was discussed. It was known that oil liked gold. It was known that "local
oil" would be used up without higher prices. What if, the US dollar was
taken off the gold standard, and gold was managed "upward" to say, $208
per ounce? The dynamics of the market would force oil to rise and allow
for much needed capital to search for the higher priced oil that was known
to exist! The producers would find shelter in gold even as the price of
oil was increased in terms of a now "non gold dollar"! Price inflation
would rise, but gold and oil would also increase. The dollar would continue
to be used as the only payment for oil, and in doing so replace gold as
the backing for this "reserve currency". All would be fair.
The war in 1973 and the Iran problem did make markets "overshoot", but
all did work to the correct end. The result was "a needed higher price
for a commodity that was, as reserves, in much over supply by the wrong
countries"! It was known that the public would never have accepted this
"proposition" as fair. To this end, we have come.
And it is from this end, that the gold markets are managed for today!
I do now take you to my post to Junior:
Date: Wed Mar 25 1998 23:58 ANOTHER ( THOUGHTS! ) ID#60253:
" You state: "The USA/IMF and its'Hegemoney currency could not withstand
cheap oil prices." ?
" Mr. Junior,
Be very sure to understand this: They can "stand cheap oil prices".
But, it is the loss of having the US$ removed as the "world reserve currency"
that makes them "fight" a lower oil price, and the new "world oil currency"
that it would bring. Bring this thought into focus and you will understand
why Iran and Iraq did fight so long. And why Iraq invaded. The warships
are an attempt to keep prices from "falling"! You think long and hard on
this! "
All:
Look now and see if the US dollar does not "fight" for a high oil price!
In every way, the question of supply disruptions is shown as the need for
other suppliers. But, other suppliers cannot produce at a lower price?
If the gulf states are allowed to bring oil "down" to it's true "fair"
production price, in terms of a "correctly higher revalued" gold price,
the US dollar would no longer be priced and backed by oil. Any paper trading
currency would do. I would say, "if the Euro is strong in gold, and crude
oil is allowed to be devalued by gold at $10,000 to $30,000, then all other
paper currency reserves held against the EURO would be , "for show?"
"The world is going off the dollar standard as the dollar is going off
the oil standard ", find this event "in your time"! We watch this new gold
market, together, yes?
Date: Thu Apr 02 1998 06:24
ANOTHER (THOUGHTS!) ID#60253:
ALL:
Much is in progress now, and I must be away for a time. Will not post
on April 04. Will write from another country if time will allow. There
will be much thinking with gold, very soon. We will talk another time,
yes?
Thank you
Date: Tue Mar 31 1998 08:41
ANOTHER (THOUGHTS!) ID#60253:
ALL:
I will wish for thinking and reply, this day ( April 04 ) . Have been
shown the article "Oracle Of Alberta" on "eagle site" and will reply!
Thank you
Date: Tue Mar 31 1998 08:32
ANOTHER (THOUGHTS!) ID#60253:
Copyright © 1998 ANOTHER/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
All:
On March 18, the Belgian Central Bank said it sold 299 tonnes of gold
last week. This sale/purchase was ongoing, completed and announced during
the time frame of my post ( of Date: Mon. Mat 09, 1998, 07:55 )
This purchase was completed by the BIS for it's account and held in
five CBs. It was made at appx $305us. As this transaction was made public
within the 5 to 10 day time frame, did that mean gold would move to it's
new range of $320/$260 in that time also? No. What it does show, is that
the BIS has made a decision to "no longer support the LBMA gold paper with
CB gold"!
The central underlying questions from the beginning of these "Thoughts",
was always, "will the CBs become the primary gold suppliers in the continued
support of low oil prices" and " will the oil producers accept a world
gold market that supplies only "non-mined" gold"? In the process of traveling
to this point in time, the world governments found this new oil/gold arrangement,
so successful for "paper asset" prices
( Dow Jones? ) , that they allowed the markets to supply any and all
"gold paper" possible! Now, with the world awash in "US dollars" and "gold
paper", a new asset is being formed to "draw" the oil producers closer
to Europe! The offer is the "exact opposite" of the "US dollar agreement",
this new offer will drive gold to a value that will allow it to become
"the world oil asset and currency" if the producers use the "Euro" as the
"oil trading currency"! In this process the Euro will become as solid as
the reserves that back it.
Gold in $320 to $360, will be a time of much concern for any and all
US dollar and US dollar asset holders. At some point, oil may say "yes"
to the EURO, even before it is official, and gold will break to into the
thousands with no hold back by CBs. Oil prices in US dollars will explode,
even as prices plunge for Euro based currencies, and the US economy will
implode. The world US dollar based economy is about to change, and America
will find "no point" for warships in the Gulf. I ask you now, "who will
defend Arabia"?
Many metal traders see gold as "a lost value from the past" and "a poor
investment for simple persons"! I say, these traders have no experience
with this new market of gold, as it is as "none before"! Many will find
this "asset" was "worth the time of waiting".
Thank you
Date: Thu Mar 26 1998 00:35
ANOTHER (THOUGHTS!) ID#60253:
Copyright © 1998 ANOTHER/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
REPLY:
Date: Thu Mar 26 1998 00:14
Interesting Times ( reserve currency shift ( ANOTHER ) ) ID#423355:
"currency nuclear war"?
Sir,
If one closely follows "in the footsteps of giants" ( not the book
) , he will also be preparing for a "currency war"! Time passes, thoughts
change, people consider and value is perceived differently. Persons say,
"the seasons are all the same", but we know "the weather is never the same".
A storm approaches YOUR SHORES from across the pacific!
Mr. Lurker 777,
You have much leverage with gold, yes? Your tomorrow, it does not come
soon enough? Even some countries are as such! Gold will find a new range,
if the CBs say so.
They say so!
I must be gone for a time.
Thank You, very much
Date: Thu Mar 26 1998 00:10
ANOTHER (THOUGHTS!) ID#60253:
Copyright © 1998 ANOTHER/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
REPLY:
Date: Wed Mar 25 1998 23:44
Myrmidon ( @ Another ) ID#345268:
"Sir,
Those countries whose CB's do not hold much gold, how are they going
to survive in the event of a significant upvaluation of gold?"
They will work and produce as all do. See the Japans, they own no oil?
Yet, somehow they make much wealth. We must clear our minds of gold as
a commodity, it is a money, and money is used to BUY! The oil producers
will not keep all gold, as they do not keep any currency. Gold will move,
but it will move with honor!
I ask you to read the ( Fri. Jan 23, 1998 22:57 ) written for me. It
offers a true "feeling" for gold.
Thank You
Date: Wed Mar 25 1998 23:58
ANOTHER (THOUGHTS!) ID#60253:
Copyright © 1998 ANOTHER/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
REPLY;
Date: Wed Mar 25 1998 23:13
Junior ( ANOTHER @ ) ID#248180:
Copyright © 1998 Junior/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
It appears to me that the strongest position of Oil Exporter Nations
outside of the USA is the "Threat" or actually the "Move" to full production
resulting in very cheap oil for an extended time period. Does this equal
the "Change" or trigger the "change"?
I do not understand?
You state: "The USA/IMF and its'Hegemoney currency could not withstand
cheap oil prices."
Mr. Junior,
Be very sure to understand this: They can "stand cheap oil prices".
But, it is the loss of having the US$ removed as the "world reserve currency"
that makes them "fight" a lower oil price, and the new "world oil currency"
that it would bring!
Bring this thought into focus and you will inderstand why Iran and Iraq
did fight so long. And why Iraq invaded. The warships are an attempt to
keep prices from "falling"! You think long and hard on this!
Date: Wed Mar 25 1998 23:31
ANOTHER (THOUGHTS!) ID#60253:
Copyright © 1998 ANOTHER/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
REPLY;
Date: Wed Mar 25 1998 22:44
clone ( Another - a different view... ) ID#269245:
Sir,
I respect your view as it makes much right. But, I ask you, what if?
In response to a world wide currency crisis and possible depression, Oil
offers to sell it's reserves for a much lower price than today. For your
eyes, I will say, they "drastically devalue oil, using gold"! One producer
offers to accept a currency price of $8.00US and a tiny fraction/oz. gold.
With all CBs holding much gold, the market dynamics would raise the reserves
of many nations several thousand %. Would this not be a welcome to a cash
strapped world?
All:
I ask you, why did the world go off the gold standard in the early
70s? You have an answer, yes? For all the problems this created, could
the countries not just revalue gold upward, to say $300 ( back then ) ?
What was the real reason the world entered a period of "freely traded"
"managed gold"?
Thank You
Date: Wed Mar 25 1998 23:12
ANOTHER (THOUGHTS!) ID#60253:
Copyright © 1998 ANOTHER/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
REPLY,
Date: Wed Mar 25 1998 10:53
jonesy ( Re. Escapism / ANOTHER / Dow Bulls / Euro / Titanic / Sluts
Endeared / Violins ) ID#251166:
Sir,
Your post was of much interest for me. The new country, "America" was
also a fantastic dream for many. However, for some, this "dream of a great
nation" did come true! For all you find to look down on her, she is still
held as the "best of the best". I find this to be a true feeling for myself,
also. The greatest changes in history were always found with much confusion
and anguish by the very persons that made "just history",
"great history"!
"find our new world the same from before, as history will look back
to see when men changed the perception of value"
thank you
Date: Wed Mar 25 1998 22:35
ANOTHER (THOUGHTS!) ID#60253:
Copyright © 1998 ANOTHER/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
REPLY,
Date: Tue Mar 24 1998 20:58
Logical ( ANOTHER ) ID#320219:
" Your proposing an upheaval in international currency- is that why
the EMU will be backed by so much gold or do we look else where for the
future international currency? Your earlier posts had a much more urgent
tone has oils plans been pushed to the right or is the increased gold backing
of the EMU a workable solution for the interim? "
Sir,
The large gold backing for the Euro and the "much greater" gold reserves
for the individual countries of the Euro, is a direct result from observations
of gold buying by oil! If it is well known by the BIS that a move by oil
to bring crude to $10.00 US, is a precursor to an "new world oil currency",
then it is well known to the Euro makers! Gold will be managed back to
a range of $320/$360 with much hope for participation of Euro as "the"
"currency/gold" payment for oil. My knowledge is that the new range will
bring a breakup to the London operation, with the ensuing run by gold to
infinity. We will watch this, together, yes? I offer my past thought:
Date: Sat Mar 07 1998 23:16
ANOTHER ( THOUGHTS! ) ID#60253:
Copyright © 1998 ANOTHER/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Neophyte ( Another - ECB gold holdings? ) ID#390249:
Do you know how much gold the ECB will hold as part of its reserves?
Mr. Neophyte,
I do not know. I have knowledge of some discussion for 15% with a individual
country holding that is very high. If this is as a final outcome, many
CBs will be forced to call in lent gold and buy. I have reason to find
this to be as fact!
Date: Sat Mar 07 1998 20:01
Mr. Psyched,
Please reread the most recent posts from Another. Your question should
be: Why would the USA buy most of it's oil from Venezuelan when it would
be far cheaper to buy it from the ME using gold? It is possible that the
new oil bid will come about with the inroduction of the EURO and give that
currency the oil backing!
All:
If the EURO is backed with gold in a large way, oil may be purchased
with EUROs and even a smaller amount of gold!
Go gold!
Part I - Part II - Part III
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